{"id":10292,"date":"2022-03-31T18:33:02","date_gmt":"2022-03-31T22:33:02","guid":{"rendered":"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/?p=10292"},"modified":"2022-04-15T15:30:08","modified_gmt":"2022-04-15T19:30:08","slug":"why-i-stopped-hating-the-mossberg-shockwave","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/why-i-stopped-hating-the-mossberg-shockwave\/","title":{"rendered":"Why I Stopped Hating the Shockwave (And Other Stockless Shotguns)"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><span class=\"style-scope yt-formatted-string\" dir=\"auto\">A few years ago, we published a now-infamous video about why the Mossberg Shockwave is probably not an ideal home defense shotgun for most people. The tone of the article may have been a\u00a0<em>bit <\/em>more emphatic than that, but that was the gist of it.<\/span><\/p> <p><span class=\"style-scope yt-formatted-string\" dir=\"auto\">But thanks to some new techniques and accessories, I&#8217;ve since done a 180 on the birdshead grip-style &#8220;firearms.&#8221; Today, we&#8217;re talking about why I&#8217;ve come to embrace mini-shotguns like the Mossberg Shockwave and the Remington Tac-13 and Tac-14.<\/span><\/p> <p>Details are in the video below, or scroll down to read the full transcript.<\/p> <div class=\"entry-content-asset\"><script src=\"https:\/\/fast.wistia.com\/assets\/external\/E-v1.js\" async><\/script><\/p> <noscript class=\"idle-load\"><div class=\"wistia_responsive_padding\" style=\"padding:56.25% 0 28px 0;position:relative;\"> <div class=\"wistia_responsive_wrapper\" style=\"height:100%;left:0;position:absolute;top:0;width:100%;\"> <div class=\"wistia_embed wistia_async_9xwnz484pl dnt=1 videoFoam=true\" style=\"height:100%;position:relative;width:100%\"> <div class=\"wistia_swatch\" style=\"height:100%;left:0;opacity:0;overflow:hidden;position:absolute;top:0;transition:opacity 200ms;width:100%;\"><img decoding=\"async\" src=\"https:\/\/fast.wistia.com\/embed\/medias\/9xwnz484pl\/swatch\" style=\"filter:blur(5px);height:100%;object-fit:contain;width:100%;\" alt=\"\" aria-hidden=\"true\" onload=\"this.parentNode.style.opacity=1;\" \/><\/div> <\/div> <\/div> <\/div><\/noscript> <\/div> <hr \/> <p>Hello everybody, I am Chris Baker from <a href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\">LuckyGunner.com<\/a>. Nearly four years ago, I made a video called <a href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/the-mossberg-shockwave-is-mostly-useless\/\">The Mossberg Shockwave is Mostly Useless<\/a>. A whole lot of people <em>really<\/em> hated this video. If you\u2019re brave enough to wade through the comments there, you\u2019ll find Shockwave fans questioning my competence, my intelligence, and my manhood.<\/p> <p>But that\u2019s okay. You kind of expect that with any negative product review, especially with a title like that one.<\/p> <p>I wanted to revisit this topic today because my opinion of the Shockwave has changed over the last couple of years. That goes for, not just the Shockwave, but the whole category of stockless short-barreled shotguns with the birdshead grip. These are legally classified as simply \u201cfirearms\u201d but I\u2019m going to call them stockless shotguns because that\u2019s what they are.<\/p> <p>I\u2019ve got three demo guns today. The first is a 20 gauge Mossberg 590 Shockwave with a Swamp Fox red dot on a rifle-height mount. It also has an Esstac 7-round shell carrier with velcro attachment, an XS Big Dot front sight, and a Demonstrated Concepts Recoil Strap.<\/p> <p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/Mossberg-shockwave-20-ga.jpg\" data-rel=\"lightbox-image-0\" data-rl_title=\"\" data-rl_caption=\"\" title=\"\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-10296\" src=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/Mossberg-shockwave-20-ga.jpg\" alt=\"Mossberg Shockwave 20 gauge\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/Mossberg-shockwave-20-ga.jpg 1200w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/Mossberg-shockwave-20-ga-600x338.jpg 600w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/Mossberg-shockwave-20-ga-1024x576.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/Mossberg-shockwave-20-ga-768x432.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/Mossberg-shockwave-20-ga-350x197.jpg 350w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1200px) 100vw, 1200px\" \/><\/a><\/p> <p>The second gun is a 12 gauge semi-auto Remington V3 Tac-13. It has the same recoil strap and Swamp Fox dot as the Mossberg. And I\u2019m using a 4-round shell carrier from Esstac.<\/p> <p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/tac-13-side-1.jpg\" data-rel=\"lightbox-image-1\" data-rl_title=\"\" data-rl_caption=\"\" title=\"\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-10297\" src=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/tac-13-side-1.jpg\" alt=\"Remington V3 Tac-13\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/tac-13-side-1.jpg 1200w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/tac-13-side-1-600x338.jpg 600w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/tac-13-side-1-1024x576.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/tac-13-side-1-768x432.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/tac-13-side-1-350x197.jpg 350w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1200px) 100vw, 1200px\" \/><\/a><\/p> <p>And finally, we have a 12 gauge Mossberg 590 Shockwave Night Stick. This one is pretty much completely stock except for the Crimson Trace Laser Saddle.<\/p> <p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/night-stick-side-1.jpg\" data-rel=\"lightbox-image-2\" data-rl_title=\"\" data-rl_caption=\"\" title=\"\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-10298\" src=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/night-stick-side-1.jpg\" alt=\"Mossberg Shockwave Nightstick\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/night-stick-side-1.jpg 1200w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/night-stick-side-1-600x338.jpg 600w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/night-stick-side-1-1024x576.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/night-stick-side-1-768x432.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/night-stick-side-1-350x197.jpg 350w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1200px) 100vw, 1200px\" \/><\/a><\/p> <p>Before I get into why I started to warm up to these guns, I want to go back and summarize the issues I went over in that original video. And I want to be clear that both then and now, I\u2019m looking at these things in the context of personal defense, especially inside the home. If you just want to have fun with them at the range, that\u2019s a completely different perspective.<\/p> <h3><strong>Shockwave Challenges<\/strong><\/h3> <p>In the defense context, what it comes down to for me is that the benefit of their small size is not worth the trade-off of making them more difficult to shoot than a traditional shotgun. You can fire them from the hip, but it\u2019s difficult to know for sure what you\u2019re aiming at (unless you\u2019re using a laser sight, but we\u2019ll come back to that later).<\/p> <p>If you\u2019re just chucking a wide patterning buckshot out there, it\u2019s not all that hard to get some pellets on target, but it\u2019s also really easy to throw some pellets off target. We are accountable for every one of those pellets, so filling the air with lead and hoping for the best is not an acceptable home defense strategy.<\/p> <p>The other common technique is to hold the gun out in front of you, almost in the same position it would be if it did have a shoulder stock. That way, you can actually aim the gun properly.<\/p> <p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/shooting-mossberg-old-technique.jpg\" data-rel=\"lightbox-image-3\" data-rl_title=\"\" data-rl_caption=\"\" title=\"\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-10299\" src=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/shooting-mossberg-old-technique.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"750\" height=\"421\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/shooting-mossberg-old-technique.jpg 750w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/shooting-mossberg-old-technique-600x337.jpg 600w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/shooting-mossberg-old-technique-350x196.jpg 350w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 750px) 100vw, 750px\" \/><\/a><\/p> <p>I much prefer this approach, but it\u2019s still a pretty clumsy way to shoot. Recoil control is difficult. Cycling the action is awkward on the pump-actions. Compared to a traditional shotgun, it feels slow and inconsistent when you\u2019re trying to aim the gun under time pressure.<\/p> <p>It\u2019s not that these guns are unusable, or that there is no benefit to their size. It\u2019s just that you\u2019re making a pretty questionable tradeoff. The short overall length does make the gun easier to maneuver in some very specific circumstances that might be relevant to you. But without a shoulder stock, it\u2019s almost guaranteed you are going to be worse at actually hitting your target and only your target.<\/p> <p>That pretty much summarizes my assessment of these things four years ago when I did that initial review. And that was more or less the consensus opinion among shotgun instructors and other dedicated shotgun users I know. If you were serious about the defensive use of shotguns, the Shockwave and guns like it were seen as a joke or, at best, a very niche tool for only the most accomplished shotgunners and special tasks like door breaching.<\/p> <h3><strong>A New Technique<\/strong><\/h3> <p>So what changed? Well, if you\u2019re a regular viewer, you probably already know the answer. What changed is that I had some conversations with the tactical space wizard known as Rhett Neumayer of <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/channel\/UC3ZSvyxYpdQOnRUseGV7lmw\">Demonstrated Concepts<\/a>. Rhett is the heretical lunatic behind the <a href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/the-cheek-pistol-lets-get-weird\/\">cheek pistol concept<\/a> I talked about a few months ago. But before he started working on that, he developed some techniques for shooting these birdshead grip shotguns.<\/p> <p>Rhett\u2019s technique looks similar to that last one, but instead of extending the gun out in front, you bring the grip back to your cheek.<\/p> <p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/cheek-technique-2.jpg\" data-rel=\"lightbox-image-4\" data-rl_title=\"\" data-rl_caption=\"\" title=\"\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-10300\" src=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/cheek-technique-2.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/cheek-technique-2.jpg 1200w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/cheek-technique-2-600x338.jpg 600w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/cheek-technique-2-1024x576.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/cheek-technique-2-768x432.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/cheek-technique-2-350x197.jpg 350w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1200px) 100vw, 1200px\" \/><\/a><\/p> <p>This has several advantages. It gives you a third point of contact that acts as an index point to help you aim more consistently. You don\u2019t have to hunt for the sight or bead \u2013 it\u2019s right in front of you every time just like it would be with a traditional shoulder stock.<\/p> <p>Another advantage is better recoil control versus having the gun pressed out. If you\u2019re familiar with the push-pull technique for traditional shotguns, Rhett uses something similar he calls push-clench. You push forward on the forend with the support hand. With the primary hand, you put pressure down and in. Think about rotating the elbow in toward your body. That\u2019s the direction the force should be going. Depending on your wrist mobility, your elbow might end up pointing more out than down \u2013 I usually have kind of a chicken wing thing going on when I do this. It looks weird, but I promise, it really does work.<\/p> <p>One of the keys to making this work is the recoil strap. Rhett came up with this idea for a basic nylon strap secured with a cord and some Velcro. You can buy them at <a href=\"https:\/\/demonstratedconcepts.com\/product\/recoil-strap\/\">Demonstrated Concepts<\/a> or on Amazon. The technique does work without the strap, but then you\u2019re really depending more on grip strength alone to manage recoil and it\u2019s less effective.<\/p> <p>Rhett also uses a light or a handstop on the side of the forend. He presses that into the web of his hand and it acts as another point of recoil control.<\/p> <p>Either way, it feels a lot different than managing recoil with a shoulder stock. You will get some rearward movement of the gun and you kind of just have to let it happen. It\u2019s important to position the gun so it recoils alongside your face and not into your face. I have my thumb and fingertips just barely touching my chin and cheek. I just want a repeatable spot to place the gun so I can get a consistent index. I\u2019m not pressing the grip <em>into<\/em> my cheek the way I would with a traditional stock.<\/p> <p>I have tried this with just a bead sight and with a dot on a low mount and a higher mount like this one. I\u2019ve gone back and forth a couple of times but I think the higher mount works better for me. I can find the dot quicker and it\u2019s a little more comfortable. That\u2019s something you might have to experiment with.<\/p><p><\/p> <p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/cheek-technique.jpg\" data-rel=\"lightbox-image-5\" data-rl_title=\"\" data-rl_caption=\"\" title=\"\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-10301\" src=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/cheek-technique.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/cheek-technique.jpg 1200w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/cheek-technique-600x338.jpg 600w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/cheek-technique-1024x576.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/cheek-technique-768x432.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/cheek-technique-350x197.jpg 350w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1200px) 100vw, 1200px\" \/><\/a><\/p> <p>I\u2019d suggest starting out with <a href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/12-gauge-2-3-4-1oz-7-5-shot-nobelsport-low-recoil-250-rounds\">low recoil loads<\/a>. I rarely use anything but low recoil birdshot and buckshot for all of my shotgun practice anyway. Low recoil #00 buck consistently penetrates 20 inches in ballistic gel. That\u2019s more than enough for defensive use. Even if you prefer full power loads, save those until after you\u2019ve gotten the hang of the cheek shooting technique.<\/p> <p>There\u2019s a lot more nuance to this technique that I\u2019m still figuring out. Rhett is still experimenting and the technique continues to evolve. He\u2019s got plenty of details and tips in his videos on <a href=\"https:\/\/www.youtube.com\/channel\/UC3ZSvyxYpdQOnRUseGV7lmw\">YouTube<\/a> and <a href=\"https:\/\/www.instagram.com\/dcon_training\/\">Instagram<\/a> if you want to dive into that.<\/p> <h3><strong>Stockless in the Shotgun Skills Test<\/strong><\/h3> <p>The real test for something like this is to use an objective, measurable standard. So I decided to use the four-stage <a href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/the-home-defense-shotgun-skills-test\/\">Home Defense Shotgun Skills Test<\/a> that I came up with last year. I ran it with the Shockwave and the Tac-13, and then for comparison, I also ran it with the Beretta 1301 and the old Winchester 120 Ranger.<\/p> <p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/test-results.jpg\" data-rel=\"lightbox-image-6\" data-rl_title=\"\" data-rl_caption=\"\" title=\"\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-10302\" src=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/test-results.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/test-results.jpg 1200w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/test-results-600x338.jpg 600w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/test-results-1024x576.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/test-results-768x432.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/test-results-350x197.jpg 350w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1200px) 100vw, 1200px\" \/><\/a><\/p> <p>It turns out, what made the bigger difference was not stock versus no stock. It was semi-auto versus pump action. If we compare them by action type, the times are very close. The only place there was a significant difference was on the reload stage. I fumbled a bit with the Winchester, so my time there was on the slower side. The Beretta just has superior ergonomics and I\u2019ve got a ton of time behind that gun, so I was a little faster on that one.<\/p> <p>What\u2019s important to note is that the Shockwave and the Tac-13 slowed me down very little in terms of sight acquisition or recoil control. That\u2019s not going to be the case for everyone, especially the first time they try the technique. But this should give you an idea of what\u2019s possible after putting in a few hours of practice.<\/p> <h3><strong>Stock Versus Stockless<\/strong><\/h3> <p>So if the cheek shooting technique, practically speaking, allows me to shoot a stockless shotgun almost as well as a traditional shotgun, that raises an important question. Why don\u2019t I just use stockless shotguns all the time?<\/p> <p>There are a few reasons, but for me the big one is that a gun with a stock is just a lot more comfortable to shoot. That\u2019s not to say the stockless guns are painful. It\u2019s not like getting beat up by a magnum snub nose revolver. A better word would be fatiguing. The push-clench technique starts to wear me out after a couple of boxes of shells. So I have to cut my practice sessions a little shorter than I would if I was working with a stocked gun.<\/p> <p>For my actual home defense guns, I don\u2019t plan on switching over to stockless shotguns at this point. But it\u2019s something I would consider if I lived in a home with a lot of tight corne rs and hallways, or if I believed I was at high risk of being attacked in my vehicle or if I wanted to travel discreetly with something more capable than a handgun. That\u2019s a big change from how I felt about these guns before I was clued in to Rhett\u2019s technique.<\/p> <h3><strong>Hip Firing With a Laser Sight<\/strong><\/h3> <p>Before I get into some hardware issues, I want to briefly cover the hip firing with a laser sight. This is something several people mentioned in response to that first Shockwave video. Crimson Trace makes this thing they call the Laser Saddle. It fits onto the receiver and the emitter is right here behind the ejection port. I had planned to do some testing with this setup, but the gun broke.<\/p> <p><a href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/extractor.jpg\" data-rel=\"lightbox-image-7\" data-rl_title=\"\" data-rl_caption=\"\" title=\"\"><img decoding=\"async\" class=\"alignnone size-full wp-image-10303\" src=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/extractor.jpg\" alt=\"\" width=\"1200\" height=\"675\" srcset=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/extractor.jpg 1200w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/extractor-600x338.jpg 600w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/extractor-1024x576.jpg 1024w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/extractor-768x432.jpg 768w, https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/media\/extractor-350x197.jpg 350w\" sizes=\"(max-width: 1200px) 100vw, 1200px\" \/><\/a><\/p> <p>Before I got through the first box of shells, I started having problems with ejection. It turns out one of the two extractors had broken in half on this brand new Shockwave. We ordered a replacement, so maybe I\u2019ll try that again sometime in the future. For now, I can\u2019t really comment much on hip firing. So far, it feels slow and clumsy even with the laser, but my experience is pretty limited.<\/p> <h3><strong>Hardware Options<\/strong><\/h3> <p>I\u2019m not really surprised I had an issue with this Shockwave. A lot of you were skeptical when I mentioned a few months back that Mossbergs are not quite what they used to be. This is a perfect example. Most of them are fine. Some of them aren\u2019t. And the percentage of \u201cnot fine\u201d guns appears to be on the rise.<\/p> <p>If you really want a pump-action stockless shotgun, you might want to instead consider a Remington Tac-14, based on the model 870. That might come as a surprise because Remingtons have been very rough for the past several years. But they are under new ownership now. I\u2019m hearing some encouraging reports about the most recent batches of Remington 870s. They are apparently better than they\u2019ve been in a very long time. Both the Tac-14 and the Shockwave are going for about $500 right now. Between the two, I\u2019d take my chances with the Remington.<\/p> <p>It also looks like the new management at Remington is going to start making semi-autos again, including the Tac-13. I\u2019ve been told they are on the dealer price list and they can be ordered, but there\u2019s no official date for when they will ship. The Tac-13 has been out of production since sometime in 2020 and they\u2019ve been really difficult to find lately. Used ones are selling for over 2 grand in some cases. Whenever the new ones start shipping, I\u2019d expect the price to be roughly half that.<\/p> <p>If you can wait, and it\u2019s in your budget, I would go with the Tac-13 over the pump actions. Cheek shooting a semi-auto is much, much easier than a pump. A pump will make you work twice as hard and running the action manually will be less reliable than the semi-auto action.<\/p> <p>The Black Aces Tactical Pro Series S is a tempting option. They cost about as much as the pump actions, but they\u2019re semi-auto. I haven\u2019t shot one, so I can\u2019t say much about them. But, be aware that they are made in Turkey. At least a dozen different Turkish gun makers have flooded the market with cheap shotguns the last couple of years. They are generally not considered very robust. I know Rhett has tried a few of them and some have worked better than others. If you\u2019re not going to put thousands of shells down range and you just want to try out the stockless shotgun concept with a semi-auto, they\u2019re probably not a bad deal. Just manage your expectations.<\/p> <p>That\u2019s all I\u2019ve got for now. I hope you guys found that helpful. The next time you need some ammo, be sure to get it from us with lightning fast shipping at <a href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/\">LuckyGunner.com<\/a>.<\/p> <p>&nbsp;<\/p> <\/p>","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>A few years ago, we published a now-infamous video about why the Mossberg Shockwave is probably not an ideal home &#8230; <a class=\"read-more\" href=\"https:\/\/www.luckygunner.com\/lounge\/why-i-stopped-hating-the-mossberg-shockwave\/\">Continued<\/a><\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":4,"featured_media":10320,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"closed","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"_acf_changed":false,"footnotes":""},"categories":[266],"tags":[20,34,45,354,247],"class_list":["post-10292","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","has-post-thumbnail","hentry","category-defensive-shotguns","tag-home-defense","tag-mossberg","tag-remington","tag-shockwave","tag-shotguns"],"acf":[],"yoast_head":"<!-- This site is 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